Why sometimes people don't like a sandbox.

Xiphos has a wonderful summary of a discussion in the EvE forums about the ‘dumbing down’ or ‘dwindling’ nature of  PvP in the game. I disagree vehemently with that observation as noted below

I was going to write a big long response to him but thought I’d mention it here instead.

Several things to keep in mind:

  1. I have been a miner
  2. I have had Manasi for 5 years
  3. I have been a mission runner
  4. I am currently a Alliance PvP pilot

I found the summary question that Xiphos talked about interesting:

but what exactly is that community these days? Some players think that the large sandbox they used to play in has two sections, two communities, and one of them is starting to push the other aside.

My thoughts on this are that EvE is growing and maturing. I think there are about 700 different varieties of sand and no way do they all fall into one of two types.

Xipohos also quotes the following:

His post, The Rise and Fall of EVE Online, calls into question the very foundation of the PvP, no limits dream that is (or was) EVE. “EVE,” Rells argues, “has forsaken its promise of the PvP mecca.”

I could not disagree more.

When EvE started out I was mining.  Period. Then Came PvP.  EvE was called a sandbox game before people even knew what that was.  My view is that the ‘sand’ is changing, as different types of ‘sand’ are added, sometime we as players don’t like/want/ need that type.  in much the same way I think the thought that EvE was a PvP mecca is distorted.  It simply is a place where PvP comes to life.

Do I like being a miner anymore?..no thats why I changed what I do, which the game not only allows but encourages, do I loathe/hate/envy miners?  Nope… I can still mine if I want to.

Do I run missions anymore?  No, I was tired of the same missions over and over and grinding for something is not my style, so I switched from that too…EvE encouraged this and I didn’t have to do anything special, I just changed what I did.

Am I locked into a choice?  No, I can go ‘play’ in any sand I want in the ‘box’ that I feel like.

Is the sand 5 years ago the same sand? No but variety adds to enjoyment.

CCP uses EvE to encourage people to try other things and not become so singled minded in something, that evolves and changes.

Can you PvP in hi sec?..yes but there are consequences.

Can you PvP in low sec?…yes but there are consequences there as well

Can you PvP in null sec?..yes but there are still consequences.

No matter where you go and fight there are always consequences.

Want some big engagements look at Delve look to Goons, -A-,UNL, Stain Empire, C0ven, and Systematic Chaos Alliances tons of PvP there.  Do the pirates that inhabit low sec PvP there?  Heck yes…. according to The Bastards, The Hellcats and others. So, PvP is alive and well throughout the cluster.

So what does this guy who runs this alliance want?

He says care bears are to blame ( who the hell is going to build stuff or us to fly?)

He says they have made goldfarming no risk/lots of reward ( ask all the macro ratters we threw out of Stain/ Esoteria/ Feythablois with repeated poddings and camps, they would disagree with him)

He complains that the changes to the ‘free market’ were made at the expense of PvP …that’s stupid what does he fly cardboard ships? No, he flies shipsmade by other people, that what they like to do, and without them we wouldn’t have crap.  Costs may be changing but so what costs always fluctuate

I know who BoB is, I know where Delve is, and we have had an INFLUX of people who want to experience new things and are bored of mining/mission running so they have come to 0.0 to experience it.

Ctrl + Q tactic does NOT work if you are agressed/bubbled or warp scrambled, you can be located, destoryed and podded with ease.  We use bubbles to trap macro ratters and blow em away.  It does prevent those with crappy connections from losing everything due to a disconnect.

Comparing EvE’s “easy’ level to another game is irrelevant.  I have never in my life played a game that requires as much knowledge, understanding, and time to get good at things than EvE.  That’s why I play it.  I ahve played Almost Every other MMO on the market aside from FF anf UO.  None of them were as diificult to master nor as humbling as EvE is.

I played WoW as a max level Paladin healer. I ran every instance there was, saw almost every boss in the game and did everything I could.  Wow is to EvE ;as 3rd grade is to 3rd year in College/University.


Look at the way Faction Warfare has brought new people to PvP I can think of several bloggers who were FW guys and have now switched to 0.0 or low sec and now PvP.

All these arguments refute his assertions about the decrease in PvP if anything they fly in the face of it.  He may be experiencing things HE doesn’t like, but I for one love the game and applaud what they have done.

Maybe the ‘sand’ is chafing him if so try a change of scenery, kind of like a swimsuit model who is wearing a tight suit and gets irritated that sand is so ‘chaffing’ ( what they can’t make softer sand??? they ask…).


~ by Manasiv5 on March 6, 2009.

9 Responses to “Why sometimes people don't like a sandbox.”

  1. I'm glad I showed you the way to the long rant you warned me about 🙂 I'll make sure to link your side of the argument as soon as I can get the fiancee aggro off of me.

  2. @Venom Orchid: perhaps not deliberately, but yes. Creating AURORA, co-opting a bunch of dedicated writers and PVPers then trashing the whole thing with not but a tiny explanation? I'd call that "flipping the bird" to the people who signed up.

    I can tell you it was probably trashed because it wasn't profitable; there weren't enough people interested in driving real, expanding fiction — the vast majority of folk in EVE either suck on asteroids, play the market or blow each other up — and much of this happens without so much as a single nod to the fiction.

    Which I'm fine with, by the way — I'm all for "fiction agnostics" in any game! It's just that CCP has decided to cater almost exclusively to them because they represent a bigger revenue stream. Which I can also understand… but then you get around to Rell's rant about integrity, honesty and transparency in development, etc.

    Also, I still quite like EVE, it just doesn't have the type of environment I want to play in anymore. There's been a fairly steady exodus (or transformation) of dedicated RP persons for the last three years or so.

  3. Amen. That is really all the comment I have left too add here.

  4. Bravo. Good post. I was a little worried near the end when I thought you were going to jump into Anakin's 'sand is rough' speech from Star Wars Epsiode 2, but you avoided that pitfall, which would have earned a lot of boos from me 🙂

    Seriously though, Its been said before, but you've hit the nail right on the head. CCP have noticed that a lot of the population are risk averse, and dont want to have PVP forced on them – however the things they have added recently (FW being the prime example) and in the future, wormholes have all got a PVP aspect to them. Eve in its essence is all about PVP – either market battles, resource conflicts, or the simpler, base PVP of blowing each other up. Either way, theres something for everyone.

  5. I must agree with the ladies Manasi quite possibly a masterpiece of the bloggers art. I stand in aw of your ability to put feelings and observations to prose.

    As I got into PvP over the last half year after being a pretty solid carebear industrialist for the previous year and a half, I've come to see more of EVE as it truly is rather than as I wanted it to be (and going back to being the leader of an alliance which is a whole other bailiwick). It really does take someone who's done both to understand both sides. I think the problem with the shrill cries we hear from time to time (ok, regularely) on the forums is from people who have gotten overly comfortable in their little part of the sand box and either won't or can't understand other areas of the sand box.

    So far CCP has shown amazing vision. When they rebalanced the speed issue they actually enriched the PvP experience in many ways. I certainly didn't see the result being as good as it ended up being ahead of time. Based on the predictions of doom and gloom that that came out on the forums prior to quantum rise, I've concluded that the shrill mono positional idiots REALY don't know what they are talking about.

  6. I agree with Mynx, fantastic post. I agree with you as well, which I think is secondary to the quality of the post. It's the old "Who Moved My Cheese", some will haw and hem about it and some will just look for the new pile of cheese. One thing we learn from haw and hem (or Buddha if you will) is that nothing stays the same, the question will be how long will you chose to suffer from not seeing that. I gotta ask Jambe, do you really think CCP gives anyone the "huge middle finger"? The complexity of the game drew me in and it's what helps me past times that have grown stale. I'm very thankful for EVE's complexity or I wouldn't have played this long. I'm one to blow through games rather quickly and move on but not EVE. In general, the players of EVE are left to create their own reality. Of course there are bits that could be tweaked to make it more so but in general, we are the masters of how the game evolves. Where else can you get that? ahh wait, RL. 🙂

  7. I stopped playing EVE because the RP community is mostly craptastic and that's the only real reason I was there. The problem is CCP's focus on straight PvP to the detriment of lore development or RP stimulus. Faction Warfare is nice for people who aren't, say, Sansha or Guristas RPers (I was a Sansha fan myself), but FW gets boring quickly even for that lot. If you're not familiar with AURORA take that as a great example of how CCP gave a huge middle finger to loads of long-time EVE RPers.

    Or you could just look at the Sansha lore developed recently; the most in-depth information provided about any Sansha happening over the last two years has been an update blurb that was one effing paragraph — ONE! Thanks, CCP! I can tell you appreciate me. I'll take my time and money elsewhere.

    What makes it particularly frustrating for me is I happen to quite like the platform lore, the economy and the variable nature of EVE PvP. The fact that CCP have a habit of marginalizing non-Empire RP combined with the mundaneness of click-based combat make it hard for me to want to come back and check out Apocrypha, even for a single month.

    I had fun with my time in EVE but I just can't enjoy it like I once did. I've done a few month subs since I quit my original run and it's fun for a week then it gets boring again. It's probably a personal taste thing for me more than anything — I'm really craving a space combat simulator that actually demands constant attention & action as opposed to a game where combat consists of a few variations on the "control-click, two or three keystrokes" paradigm.

    I'm putting my hope in Infinity, a space combat simulation MMO featuring Newtonian physics, a seamless planetary engine (go from space to planetary atmosphere with no loading scenes), space and planetside content and space structured by logical astrophysics (as contrasted against EVE's irrational galactic layout).

  8. Mule, this is probably one of your best posts ever. More so, since I happen to agree 100% with you on every single point. Bravo. You said it all much better than I ever could.

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