SyS-k past and present

I’d like to walk readers through a history of SyS-K.  Having been there from the beginning through the end of our time in Esoteria, that amount if time gives me decent insight as to systematic-Chaos

When CEPTA joined SyS-K they were a small group living in the Stain region of Space.  That is NPC space, and as such as long as you had more numbers, assets could be moved in relative safety. The bad part of Stain  is that my standings with Sansha do not allow me to run missions ( which I loathe anyways)  Many people spout the potential profit of Nightmare Blue prints blah blah blah, my standings with the NPC’s never budged an inch, as such I was extremely bored with that area of space, and loathe it to this day.

We then moved when we were able to Esoteria.

MONEY

Pre-dominion you needed POS’s to claim Sovereignty.  At it height CEPTA Maintained 24 of the 88 POS eventually used to claim Esoteria, but that ended come Dominion.  Initially we made money by dividing the number of POS that we maintained (at it’s height I recall 24 Sys-K POS, were anchored by CEPTA) .  Moon minerals were harvested and split among those corps that had POS claiming Sov.

Post dominion new ways to make cash had to be found….simply put they are anomalies!

ALLIANCE FIGHTING STYLE

While we played in Stain, and got to know the players down there.

In the beginning we were the rapid reaction force  of what came to be known as the Stain Wagon.  We would go to great lengths to get to a fight. We would titan bridge, use bridges, by any means needed we would show up to a fight with well fitted ships ready for action.

With the inclusion of several new Corps in the Early part of SyS-K cap fleets with 60-80 Dreadnoughts were not unheard of.  While I was just a BS pilot being a Cap pilot was something that was pushed to a large extent.

The theory at first was show up in the best fitted ship you could. This way a slightly out numbered group could take on a larger if less well fitted group. That and we would show up for any fight if asked.

This later morphed into a sometimes very impressive Battleship and Cap fleet, as such we often engaged in HUGE fights, and fighting within lag was something we excelled at.

CONFLICTS

C9N: 3 Major Battles were fought at the beginning of SyS-K.

49-U6U at least 8 Major battles were fought here…one of them the single largest I have ever seen ( till H-W) we had 1609 pilots in 49-U6U fighting against the goons/Zaf and others.

T-GTMI Battle “the great turkey shoot in Providence”

Hundreds of other skirmishes

We had many fights with Br1ck Squad while in Stain and later in Esoteria.

We also had many fights with Goonswarm ( those who think Goons abandoned Esoteria obviously did not see the hundreds of kills that SyS-K got in the old Goon areas)

We were asked, and agreed to help kick the goons out of Delve, Querious and Period Basis, once IT lost their space.

We aligned with IT and Atlas and ROL and basically continued being the rapid reaction force.

DOWNFALL

During last summer we had a long period of light activity and this involved people farming in Stain.

We brought in corps that well, simply wanted someone to protect them while they farm for ISK.  This was huge mistake.

After Goons fell and ZAF withdrew, we still maintained the presence in both Period Basis and in Esoteria.    Once IT re-gained the region a deal was struck to allow Legeunia ROmana to hold one part of Period Basis, while SyS-k would occupy another part, and IT would occupy the remaining bit.

Logistics this deep in the edges of the known universe have some distinct logistical disadvantages. To this end Jump bridges were key.  As were the logistical jump bridges in HHQ & O1Q.  The loss of these two systems was very detrimental to move gear around and SE/C0ven took full advantage of this.

in January, Liam was ill and was out for about 2 weeks, at the same time we brought in more Corps that just wanted to farm and make ISK.

Liam came back and we headed to Providence to help .-A-., and indeed we seiged the D-GTMI system and were a major player in the “great Turkey shoot” Apologies to you former provi guys as it was a total bloodbath.

SE/C0VEN FIGHTING

We came back to Esoteria and Liam got word that IT had been set neutral but C0ven and SE, IT rolled into period basis and beat the shit outta them there ( much like we have just had done to us) Liam intervened at the begging of SE/C0ven, and IT relented.

SE/C0ven set us neutral as we refused to set IT neutral.

We were given standing orders to skirmish with C0ven/SE but to NOT en age in any other warfare (sov, etc)

Liam became gravely ill and basically did not log in for 5-6 weeks, still being under those  orders we skirmished a bit.

About a month ago SE/C0ven hit HHQ/JAUD, as our logistical beachhead.  They attacked and attacked and we simply had grown to full of people who would not fight.  IN an Alliance of 3000 we could field maybe 10% sometimes only 5%.  This was the single greated downfall of SyS-K too many Corps were recruited that simply did not want to fight.

Carl and Amyna & Arcanum took over about 3.5 weeks ago about 1 week before the large assault in A1-AUH, basically they were given a burning Car and told, we are in the middle of the race, you have to win, you have no pit area ( logistics) only 5% of your pit crew, A sluggish engine, with only three tires , oh and no driver.

They did their best but the damage was too much.

Excellent CORPS

I.NET and especially Amyna who really did all he could to hold things together

737 a small little powerhouse of a Corp that also did everything it could.

RAGER and excellent bunch of guys that towed the line and had some phenomenal FC’s

EDF another group of guys that really went the extra mile

SSE, nice bunch went over to .-A-. were a kind of ‘sounding bell’ of changes to come.

As you are redaing this 111-F1 is under siege, but it is not contested at all.  ALL gear has been moved, many many carrier jumps happened, but all the gear was moved to safe areas.

To the former Corps of SyS-k  I say thanks.  I enjoyed fighting with you, and many will be missed.  To GLD I wish you had a better leader, Cosmoboy will be your downfall, none the less you stand by him so I give you credit.


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~ by Manasiv5 on May 17, 2010.

21 Responses to “SyS-k past and present”

  1. Manasi,

    I was a sys-k member when all this happened. I left about a month ago for many reasons.

    I like reading your posts, they are informative. Well done.

    Unfortunately you fail to mention just one thing, the thing that ruined it all for sys-k, the real thing and which leadership never seemed to understand, and I understand that still does not have any hint of.

    The problem is that sys-k had been involved in fighting for a long time. I don't remember much dates but I think we were involved in battle continuously since November. At that point all reserves run out and you are forced to spend your time getting back some isk to get a ship to get back in fights. At this point abuse kicks in, lots of threats in alliance chat to join fleet, lots of threats to get a better ship, get in fleet or log off, etc, etc. All this directed to the guys that gave up their ships for the good of the alliance in the first place.

    You talk of complacency, I say it was something else, the result of a wrong way of doing.

    Anyways, now it's over. I'm sure all alliances will go down this road some day, so it won't be the first or last.

    Till then, fly safe.

    • Middle Girl. Thanks, sometimes I forget the sheer amount of fighting that we had done. Certainly, there were MANY fights, your quite right. TC and safe journey's yourself!

      SO for the vets ( Pre- Nov ) there was a HUGE number of fights, I was mainly thinking on some ( not nearly all) of the newer Corps, and by far this is not accusatory towards any group or another, far be it for me in this nice little glass house to chuck rocks about.

  2. Thanks for the shout out mate!

  3. Sorry for opening a can o' worms, Manasi. However, as I continue to watch these situations, I'll have a bit more knowledge. I'll check out Logan's blog. I also wish you and Sys-K good luck and good fights wherever you end up.

  4. Manasi, I call this the carebear disease. It’s unique to Sov holding alliances. Basically the symptoms are as described above.

    Phase One; You start out with a fighting force that grew up together and operates well together, has been forged in the heat of battles and secures a chunk of space through hard fighting, solid tactics and a desire to PvP. With your newly claimed space, usually the alliance heads go looking for new members to populate that space and supposedly provide extra pilots for defense.

    Phase two is when these supposed support organizations bring more bears than pvpers. Only these are special bears, ones that think they can pvp. They end up on your forums, in your fleets, lowering the overall effectiveness of your alliance fleets. Around here you also start to get an attrition of the elite pvp pilots as they leave to find new places to pew pew.

    Phase three; these support corps gain more power in the alliance, forcing non-pew related decisions, and they also take on more members as bears join bears when they have a good thing going. Now your alliance takes a subtle shift from pew pew focus to bear focus. If you are in a pew pew corp you usually won’t even notice since you are off doing your own thing.

    Phase four is initiated by external conflicts. In this Phase your space gets threatened externally by a now up-and coming or established pew pew force, like C0ven and SE who don’t have the bear rot in their ranks. Leading indicators of this is skirmish warfare on your borders, think of them like probing attacks. Your remaining pew pewers and pew corps take up arms and do their best to skirmish and usually this stage can be a lot of fun, however it usually leads to invasion when the opposing force realizes that you might be an easy target for a full frontal confrontation now that you have hardened their combat vets further.

    Phase five, failscade phase 1. Invasion knocks on your doors, instead of the participation you are expecting, ie >55-65% alliance in fleet ratio, you get 5-10% with all the bears staying out of the pvp while whining on the forums, transporting assets out, and otherwise bitching, while failing to provide any of the pvp support they were actually brought in for. Here is the painful part, the remaining PvP corps in the alliance STRUGGLE hard to keep pvpers on the field, their corps usually offering the majority of the 5-10% response forces and usually more heavily engaged in the fight than anyone else.

    Phase six, complete failscade. You space is being taken, your PvPers are now outnumbered in almost every fight, but continue to fight, taking some kind of sick enjoyment out of getting killed or getting 1-2 kills being outnumbered heavily. Bears and bear corps start leaving the alliance, having evaced in part 5. PvP corps look for new homes, often going to the alliance invading you. Alliance loses all their space and either shuts it’s doors or starts back at Phase one, hopefully smart enough to avoide going down the path again.

    Phases two and three can take as little as two weeks or as long as two years, or might never happen depending on leadership. It’s not a forgone conclusion that bears in alliance = fail.

    Latrondanes; It’s not that having non-pvp corps is fail, it’s that when this proverbial shit hits the fan, those corps should be expected to help with defense, muster some people to gangs and actually provide pvp support more with their numbers than with their isk. Eve sov is blobby so having a pure industrial corp when defending your own space muster 0 combat pilots means you are just going to be even more outnumbered and beaten down. PvP corps aren’t supposed to provide “security” for mining ops, or Pver’s. As a bear you need to have your own teeth and not rely on supposed PvPers to be there for you all the time. It’s a simple concept but a surprising communications disconnect in almost every alliance I have ever been in with both PvPers and industrialists/Pvers.

    Manasi, best of luck to you and your corp! Sorry for the long long comment, but I am going to expound on this more on my Blog, so angry comments should be re-directed there ๐Ÿ™‚

    • "As a bear you need to have your own teeth and not rely on supposed PvPers to be there for you all the time."

      Is building ships not contributing to the defence?

      • fight first…build second. The problem comes when people will not show up to fight. It spreads much like a disease and is highly contagious as attitudes tend to shift. The onyl recourse, draw a hard line, or cut them out and start over. The latter option is what we are doing.

      • First, a link to my Blog post

        http://bit.ly/dhAtkx

        Second,

        @Stabs, It is contributing, but not enough. As I have been in and out of PvP corps my whole career, Bear corps even in alliance tend to make PvP corps pay for those ships, and even when they don't, those bear corps still need to provide pilots. Just making ships is not enough of a return for being in an alliance, using the space, mining, ratting, making money. You have to fight. No if-ands-or-buts about it. As Manasi says, fight first, build second. Even showing up for fights helps, even if you are failfit. It pulls you into the alliance more, builds up your experience and gives, if only slightly more dps output and more DPS spread from the other side.

    • Very well put! I like the steps and the explanation within them. Thanks for a great comment !

  5. I can see the numbers but you can equally well provide hypothetical statistics to justify carebears not fighting. Ie if you have 1000 v 1000 then you recruit a carebear corp where 200 mine and only 10 fight, you're now 1010 v 1000 and have gained an advantage.

    As to why they shouldn't fight, let's consider Eve as a sim. It's simulating warfare.

    In real wars you don't send everyone to the front. My grandfather was a farmer during WW2 and farmers were what was called a reserved occupation. It was more useful to the war effort to have him grow food (as Britain isn't self-sufficient in food and was very short during the war).

    I can see your case and I find it fascinating. I think it's in-game culture rather than The One True Way. I also think, with respect to the NC, that it's not so clear-cut.

    In the NC we have people who play to fight. If we're not at war they wulfpack. They either have indy alts or they buy plex, they never do anything but pvp on their mains. We also have a number of people who never fight. Possibly they don't have any combat skills trained and they have no desire to respond to a CTA in a T1 frigate. Most of us are in-between and that's why we get, what to an outsider seem hilariously dramatic mails. "Participate you ****s or the sky will fall in". If we get a lot then we wander down to do some pew pew and defend space. But a core of carebears is always needed (unless your pvpers manage carebear functions on alts). You can't pvp without a ship replacement programme, without the markets seeded, without moon goo being harvested.

    So although there's a lot of sound and fury about carebears I can't see any corp kicking out the guys who build their titans any time soon.

    • Stabs, you make SOLID points.

      In a real war you don't send everyone to the front. Not even in the Revolutionary war were all the fighters in the front at one time.

      Eve's a bit different in a few respects than a real war though. But let me address something first

      1. I am not saying DO NOT bring in bear corps, far from it. Rixx Javix commented on my blog and said it best, it's difficult to maintain the right PvP/industrialist backbone.

      I AM saying that bears need to participate in defense ops. The NC's so unique in so many ways, so trying to simple it down to one this is the way it is statement would result in the worlds longest run-on sentence and would still be wrong. Generally speaking though, if you are say 50% pvpers and 50% PvEers (to categorize industrialists as PvErs), and are engaged in a fight and none of your PvErs fight, and further, complain on the forums and bitch about lack of time to bear, while the remaining 50% try their best to hold sov you are gonna failscade. It's a time-proven fact. However if 25% of your bears + the PvPers go out and help, likely you not only keep your space, you also keep your alliance intact.

      NC has such a pool to pull from that it's a bit harder to talk about. But imagine this, lets say right now you are brining in about 1k people per fight, but that represents something like 14% of your overall coalition size, assuming you have 7k people. So 14% is defending the space that the other 86% uses. Can't you see how that can make the PvPers feel a little abused? Especially when they fly through the backwater systems and see the bears in there, making isk while they are fighting and dying?

      • "Can’t you see how that can make the PvPers feel a little abused?"

        Yes completely. It's not a simple situation and frankly I'm still new and absorbing the culture.

        It also occurs to me that this is not the most tactful time to debate this so let me conclude by wishing everyone who was in Sys K the best – I'm sure you'll bounce back soon.

  6. Is sad to hear when an alliance is falling apart like this (unless is Goons, that is always good). SyS-k has a rich history and in Providence brought it strong. Good luck to Cepta and the other good corps you mentioned. I know that things will turn around.

    In a more serious note… Sad to hear about Liam. Alliances, ships, sovs is all fun and game. To hear that he is very sick is a different thing. Hopefully he gets back his health.

    • consolidating down isn't falling apart, getting back to a good solid group that will effectively PvP is a great idea, long overdue. Tough break at losing Esoteria but well things always change.

  7. I'm a bit of a newbie to nullsec but I don't understand why people carebearing is so devastating. If you have 150-200 people regularly showing up from, say, 7 corps and you add an 8th that only provide 5-10 regulars out of 40-60 actives what is the actual harm?

    Does participation and morale drop in the 150-200 core active fighters? Because they feel people are freeloading?

    At the moment I am mainly carebearing in Empire, occasionally going out to nullsec to shoot people for the crack. Reading posts like this one I wonder if I'm inadvertently harming my alliance. We do get occasional irate evemails from people I've never heard of saying "FFS participate you bastards" but everyone just ignores them. Would NC be better if we simply left and stopped coming out to nullsec occasionally to shoot their enemies?

    • I brought up the NC in my blog as why they are a good example of how they don't have the carebear Disease. I will paraphrase here. When the NC is wholesale invaded, like it is being now, the bears help in the defense, actively joining gangs, providing warm bodies and following orders on joint comms.

      It's not always a morale issue, though it can be! Let's say IT has 500 "core" pvpers. Your Alliance has 500 "Core" PvPers. Now IT moved most of their active membership to engage the NC, including their Core PvPers + 100 part time pvpers, + 300 blues, + 200 teethy carebears that always show up. Now they have 1100 PvPers in the fight, you still have your 500, + 100 part timers, + 300 blues, but only 50 bears show up and then leave after they lose a few ships. Now you have a total of 950 pvpers. In any given fight the IT Alliance will have anywhere from 50 to 150 more players in the fight. If you can't see how that would make a difference then I can't help you.

      If you can see the difference, realize I am not talking about day to day operations, I am talking about in a stand up fight.

      If your corp has 60 actives, and there is a defense planned for a key system like H-W where each pilot is going to matter, is it unreasonable to expect 35-40 of your actives to show up for the defense? It's your space as well, so I don't get the attitude of "whelp I'm just a carebear so I don't have to show up."

      If your PvPers are showing up to every fight, while your bears hang out and rat when they get a chance in luls in the fighting but otherwise complain about NOT being able to rat, then yes it is going to hurt PvPer morale. Why should they fight for the space when all you do is rat in it. Who cares that the ships they fly were made by you, it's not what did you do for me, it's what have you done for me?

      Further if the fights are close, and your bears aren't showing up, and you continue to lose fight after fight, because of slight numbers, say 5-10 people, it'd be pretty frustrating for PvPers as well. Once again, is expecting the bears to show up to defend their own space unreasonable?

  8. I'm a bit confused about the down side to having non-PvP corps in Sys-K or any other 0.0 alliance. Wouldn't the taxes/rent from non-PvP specialized corps be used to fund PvP corps? I thought the the idea behind Dominion was to have encouraged this and have made that ISK-flow even more lucrative. In return, the PvP corps provide security, allowing better specialization and increased profit/fun for all types of players.

    • good question Latrodanes, the actual fact that they will not PvP is the problem. If you look at your numbers and divide them up into 1/3 fight in TZ A, 1/3 Fight in TZ B, 1/3 will not fight…that might be acceptable but NOT fighting is the problem. Had all of our pilots shown up to fight this woudl not have happened to begin with. as it was only about 10-15% were willing, and that simply enough is no where near enough.

  9. No hard feelings about Providence because, as you know, what goes around always comes around. ๐Ÿ™‚

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